Over at the Cranmer blog, I have been involved in a discussion. I thought I'd put this up here so people can offer their own thoughts.
To summarise :
I. No true atheists.
The Christians on the blog have been arguing with an atheist & the claim is that this atheist is in denial about God's existence; i.e. an atheist really knows that God exists, but wilfully chooses not to acknowledge this fact.This stems from an idea of Christian theologian John Calvin, called 'sensus divinitas'. This Calvinistic idea states that we all have a knowledge of God, but then at the same time in denial of him. Furthermore this idea isn't just that man is in denial of a classical theist God, but the specific Christian God. The argument for this proof that God exists is by the creation & therefore nature itself. So for want of a better word, as far as this argument goes, there are no true atheists. My position was to dispute this claim (more below on that later). The proof from the Christian Bible for this argument was given to me as Romans Chapter 1 verses 18 to 20, where Paul states :
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
II. My response & the counter
Because I questioned this idea , a sub-thread developed, as to whether or not my faith, Rabbinic Orthodox Judaism, holds to a similar concept or not & various arguments have been put forward to this effect. The key idea here was the concept of the 7 laws of Noah.
My critique of 'No true atheists'.
To deal with each of these issues in turn. Firstly 'sensus divinitas' would make sense if
1) It was trying to explain why there are multiple different religions in the world.
2) the world was 100% Christian & it was atheist vs Christian with no other religions.
From what I've got on this subject the theory is not attempting to explain the divine in all religions, but Christianity on its own; i.e. we are all somehow born with this idea of the divine nature of the Christian God, so point 1 becomes irrelevant.
As for point 2, the world clearly isn't divided between atheist or Christianity, but these 2 groups alongside multiple other faiths. I cannot see how, say, a Hindu in India is born with a sense of the divine Christian God. That doesn't make any sense to me.
As for the argument from creation and or nature, my problem with this was twofold. It is not that there is anything wrong with these classic theistic arguments. But for a start an argument for a God from creation doesn't necessarily in and of itself point to a Christian God or for that matter a Jewish or Islamic one. Therefore it doesn't push sensus devinitas very far. Secondly an argument from nature does not get us very far when one thinks that the Christian God claims to be above all a God of love (John 3: 16 being the most famous). Look at nature and you will find some terrible stuff; black holes which stuck in all matter, black widow spiders and of course mankind itself is a part of nature : war, death, famine, hate, pride, lust are but a few examples of the downside to humanity.
[Now I will say, I was surprised that this wasn't mentioned on the thread in response : the concept of the Christian Devil and the fall of man in the Genesis creation account. I won't elaborate much on this, but from previous Christian encounters this has often been a fall back position].
A third idea to me is that Judaism has the proof that not only does a God exist, but we can grasp, however, shallow, what God is like. We have the concept 'Ana nafshi ketavit yehavit': I have invested my very essence in writing [The Torah], so when someone asks about God it is there in the words of our Bible. Of course that does not mean we can completely understand the divine will, which is why atheists have a greater luxury than those who do believe, as Sephardi Rabbi Judah Ha-Levi said " If I understood Him I would be Him" .Hence the real question for a Jew or for anyone of faith,is who is God? What is he like? What is his will? These questions are in part, for a Jew & the thinking person of faith generally, answered in the Torah,the remainder of the Hebrew Bible & the works of our Chazal, Sages & Rabbis.
One final point that I would like to make is that I noted during the course of the discussion that Judaism is not a proselytising faith. In other words we do not actively seek to convert people, unlike Christianity or Islam, but we do suggest that Gentiles follow 7 basic laws as these are applicable to all of humanity. I noted, therefore that I felt relaxed about wanting to convince or convert an atheist to my faith. This leads us nicely to the counter argument put to me, which I outline below.
The counter argument to me :
1. Do you believe knowledge of God is restricted to Jews alone and that gentiles can have no insight into the Divine? According to your faith, following the Seven Laws of Noah is a prerequisite for a gentile to share in the life to come. If he's never told this, how does he know other than instinctively i.e. the knowledge is implanted by God?
2. One of the laws proscribes Idolatry, therefore this implies to a gentile that one must follow God or believe in him in order to fulfil this commandment
3.How can there be prohibitions against idolatry and blasphemy in the Noahide laws if we all don't know (even without necessarily consciously knowing) there is a Creator God? And the other laws indicate a inbuilt sense of right and wrong.
My response
Judaism itself and the 7 laws are to do with implementing the divine will. That is it is about action and deed, not an abstract belief and creed, which is the point you haven't grasped & which is what the God of Judaism requires of a human being, unlike Christianity which is a full worship and belief in Jesus as the penal sacrifice for all of mankind's sins, past, present and future in order to obtain passage into heaven.
The belief in a God isn't "implied" by these laws because the Rabbis of the Talmud who taught the 7 laws did, of course, believe in God and not only that they would say these laws came from God. But it is a slightly different matter for a Jew to demand that a gentile -atheist or not- follow God. Otherwise you'd all have to convert and as you know we don't evangelize as Christianity or Islam do.
Well, what do people here think of this issue?
NB- I agree that my response could have been more robust, but I didn't have a lot of time to go through in depth. That is the problem with the google blogging comment section, which is why I use discus .
